In this special episode, Chuck and Karama pay tribute to Mi’kmaq director Jeff Barnaby, with a conversation the three shared before the director's passing in 2022. In this interview, Jeff talks about his film Blood Quantum (2019), a zombie apocalypse film set in the Red Crow Indian Reservation Listiguj, in Quebec, Canada. The three of them talk about the impact of the 1981 salmon raid on Listiguj, intergenerational trauma from colonialism, and the environmental message of Blood Quantum.
In this special episode, Chuck and Karama pay tribute to Mi’kmaq director Jeff Barnaby, with a conversation the three shared before the director's passing in 2022. In this interview, Jeff talks about his film Blood Quantum (2019), a zombie apocalypse film set in the Red Crow Indian Reservation Listiguj, in Quebec, Canada. The three of them talk about the impact of the 1981 salmon raid on Listiguj, intergenerational trauma from colonialism, and the environmental message of Blood Quantum.
*This episode was recorded before the death of Jeff Barnaby and was approved for release by his family.
Find episode transcripts here: https://pop-paranormal.simplecast.com/episodes/in-memoriam-jeff-barnaby-director-of-blood-quantum
[00:00:00] Karama: What's up, pop Para Normies. It's Karama Horne, aka the blerdgurl. I'm a writer, critic, and content creator parked at the intersection of geekdom and diversity.
[00:00:09] Chuck: And I am Chuck Collins, comic book artist, former bouncer and horror connoisseur.
[00:00:15] Karama: And this is Pop Paranormal from Travel Channel. Welcome back to the show where we take you from the scary screen to behind the scenes of the most talked about horror movies and shows. Now, folks, it's been a minute and we've really missed you, right Chuck?
[00:00:32] Chuck: Oh yeah, absolutely. We've missed geeking out, you know, over our favorite movies And TV shows.
[00:00:39] Karama: And while we've been away, we were nominated for a little award,
[00:00:43] Chuck: that's right. We were nominated for best entertainment podcasts for the Andes.
[00:00:48] Karama: and if you don't know, the amies are like the Oscars for podcasts. So we've kind of made it guys. We've made it to the big time.
[00:00:55] Chuck: Except we didn't get a chance to walk on the, you know, red, well champagne carpet this year and go all fancy and Hollywood,
[00:01:02] Karama: I mean, we had champagne, but that was really about it.
[00:01:06] Chuck: Even though we didn't win, being nominated was such a big honor for us.
[00:01:10] Karama: it really was. Especially after one season. so thank you so much to everyone who's been listening and enjoying the podcast. It really, really means a lot. now we gotta bring it down a little bit because what we're about to share with you is a particularly special episode, even if it's not the easiest thing to talk about. so several months ago in October, we recorded an incredible episode with film director Jeff Barnaby about his movie Blood Quantum, which happens to be one of my and Chuck's favorite zombie films. yeah, Zombie mother eating her newborn child. It was so bloody and crazy.
[00:01:59] Chuck: and in addition to being a great zombie tale with lots of guts and gore, the film itself is rich with complex themes. the movie tackles indigenous history, the destruction of the, environment, and the trauma of colonialism.
[00:02:12] Karama: Yeah, that intergenerational trauma part it was so deep the way he wove that in. And Jeff did everything he wrote. He edited it. He directed it, and he scored the music for the film. He did an incredible job when he came onto the podcast, we were so excited to talk to him because we. Best time geeking out about all the stuff and all of the meaning behind the film with the actual creator, and he was so kind and thoughtful and dissected so much of the symbolism and scenes of Blood Quantum with us.
[00:02:43] Chuck: Absolutely.
[00:02:45] Karama: What we did not know was that our interview with Jeff Barnaby would be his last two weeks after interviewing him. Jeff passed away from cancer. This was absolutely crushing news for us to hear he was such a talent on the rise. A fiercely creative filmmaker who had already been hailed as a visionary and influential director, and he did so much to raise indigenous voices and tell indigenous stories.
[00:03:14] Chuck: yeah, I, I completely agree. And we spoke to Jeff's family and they gave us their blessing to air this episode because, hit hard when we first
[00:03:23] Karama: It did, and, it was important to us to make sure that we had their blessing, like we wanted to make sure we were honoring him.
[00:03:30] Chuck: For us, we're just honored that he chose to spend time talking to us, and in retrospect, those were some of his final days. and we're just excited to keep his memory and his work alive and we hope you continue to watch his films and spread the word about Jeff.
[00:03:48] Karama: Absolutely.
[00:03:50] Chuck: Before we get into the interview, we want to tell you a little bit about the film so you can follow the conversation camera, take it away.
[00:03:57] Karama: Set In 1981, sheriff Trailer has his hands filled on the Mack Reservation Red Crow in Quebec, Canada, there's a zombie
outbreak, but those with indigenous blood. Are immune, but the non-indigenous members of society are being wiped out and trailer creates a safe haven for survivors. On the reservation now along with Trailer are his father and Village Elder Sigu, his son Joseph Joseph's girlfriend Charlie and Trailer's stepson Lysol. Now Les all believes that the apocalypse is an opportunity to eradicate the white man and his crew, release a zombie on the refugees and begin to murder whoever's left. Charlie who is white and pregnant gets bitten and in the end, Joseph is forced to kill her after she gives birth, but before she turns, the last person on the land is Sagu who refuses to leave the land of his people.
[00:04:53] Chuck: Without further ado, here is Jeff Barnaby's. Final interview.
INTERVIEW
Jeff: I'm doing really good. Thanks for having me.
K: So what is it like to portray a pandemic on film and then live through one?
Jeff: I think that's the most interesting thing about pandemics when you see them portrayed in films is that they happen like overnight. It's like Dawn of the Dead. From the time Sarah Polly, gets her first encounter with a zombie to the point where Vin Raimes finds her, you get the impression the entire apocalypse happened within like hours. So I think when you start seeing pandemics fall apart over the course of years, you start seeing things like that where you start seeing panic fatigue and, fatigue just in general because I know, I feel it. I live in a giant house, so like I can literally go all day and never have to see anybody. And that is a blessing in.
Chuck: There was a lot of scenes in there. Jeff, I'm be real with you. Like, and this is just me giving more of a, a compliment to you as a director. Like there was some things you did that us zombie fans seeing, the evolution of zombie films. Cause every I, you know, zombie films fell off and then they came back and everybody started making them again.
But then it was like, it was what you brought to the genre that was original, that stood out. Before that, the one, that, that really stood out to me was Shawn of the dead because it was more of a comedic thing. You know, that kind of, I kept to that and I said, Ever since then there's been all these remakes and everything. When I stumbled across your movie. it resonated in such a way with me, like that other movies haven't, the social commentary there was just, it wasn't heavy handed, but at the same time It was deep cuts.
Jeff: You never had to go in with a heavy hand because everybody knows to history. They may know it in vague strokes, but they know it's there. So I think if you make little illusions to it here and there, without pulpit dumping or preaching, you can get away with a lot more. Well, not necessarily get away with a lot more, but lean more into your entertainment and let your smart audience. Appreciate that side without having to alienate the fun part.
Chuck: Right.
Karama: I completely agree. And there were so many layers to this movie, and that's what I loved about it. It had your standard zombie hits. You got the last stand. You got like, like one girl making dumb decisions. You got, but I love the little subtle things like the father who tried to get into the camp with the daughter who was already dying. And when they let him in, he brings her blanket with him.
BLANKET - BLOOD QUANTUM CLIP
Karama: and just that concept of white man with blanket, with, you know, basically a plague attached to it. And then he turns and is the, You know, Did you think everybody would get that or did, was that a, an intentional metaphor?
Jeff: Yeah, I thought everybody would get it. Like I thought it was pretty, pretty common knowledge that settlers would give smallpox blankets to native tribes in order to wipe them out. And that whole opening
Karama: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: whole opening to the second act was, was kind of explaining the rules without trying to explain them to pulpit dumpy.
Karama: Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah.
Chuck: Right.
Karama: trying to like Okay. Like with the people at the wall, like you can't get in. We we're here to check, to make sure that nobody has bites,
Jeff: Yeah, they They never say they're immune. it was a kind of hubris, if we will, because I think, whereas a lot of native people definitively know that metaphor, a lot of white people do not. And I found that my experience to be, I found it be my experience with a lot of things. Whereas I would be stating things that would be shared history and shared fact, but only one side would remember.
Chuck: totally.
Karama: And, and, that's, how history works a lot of times. What are some of the other ones in there that you, thinking back, really liked some of the, metaphors in, in the movie, Jeff? What are some of those that you really liked?
Jeff: Hmm. It's so weird to think of it because I don't really, when I write, I think like that, I think about metaphors, I think about symbology, and I think about all the meaning that's going into the film. And when I have that script chalk that I, meaning I try to take it and make it as entertaining as possible. So I think for me, the one with the deepest meaning is in 1981, there was a raid on my reserve and they put a barricade right where the barricade now is in the film that he saw the zombies. So that, for me, that was like a little homage to that barricade, except that it was eating to people that were trying to get in opposed to, treating the people that were trying to get out as prisoners
Karama: Jeff, you just mentioned panic fatigue. And I do wanna address that, uh, a little bit because that was also portrayed very well in the film. I think Lysol was part of that. But at the, cuz the movie starts when you, when the plague first hits and then we jumped to six months later. So that panic, that fatigue sets in because people are now used to this is, this is how we're living. But the, the concept of people with indigenous blood being immune to the zombie virus versus the rest of, I wanted to say the rest of the planet, but I'll just stick to Canada, the rest of
Jeff: Well, the philosophy was indigenous people indigenous to their
Chuck: Mm-hmm.
Karama: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: it was kind of like, well, what would happen to the Mohawks? And I said, Well, if the Mohawks were indigenous to their land and they were fighting zombies, they be immune, everything was about de-place nation, which is big part of, of colonization, is this idea that you're displacing all these people. And I think that's kind of what the stand at the end was. It became like this zombie trope where you make this last stand. But to me it was kind of like, what if we take that zombie trope but turn it into something else and have this specific veteran of the World War II, like not wanna fight anymore and just kind of die on these land.
[00:03:18] Chuck: Yeah.
[00:03:18] Karama: you're talking about Gisigu?
[00:03:19] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.
GUISIGU STAYS - CLIP BLOOD QUANTUM We need to go. Grandpa we need to go. I’m not leaving this land again.
Karama: And listen, he was my favorite character because when he laid waste to an entire room of zombies was just a samurai sword. I was like, I need his story. what is his story? You know? I want a movie just about him.
Chuck: personally, what I wanted was, I wanted like a spinoff of just him traveling the land becoming like the indigenous, Ash Williams from Evil Dead Like we just gonna lay waste to everything
Jeff: There was tons of scenes like that written where there was a much larger screenplay. The original screenplay ended up being like 140 pages, something like that. So we ended up taking half of that out. And one of the was the story about how the old man got, his sword in the Pacific War
Chuck: Shit.
Jeff: how he escaped Japanese internment camps to get to the Pacific front lines and get rescued and continue fighting through war. There was a whole story there that was supposed to be told in animation, but we just didn't have the budget to pull it off. So we ended up doing those feet short animation bumpers rather than like that one big animation sequence.
Chuck: Right.
Karama: I would've watched that anime. Let's talk about the animation at the beginning and the woman giving birth who we now know is the zombie that ate her baby. It's going into the earth and we go down and we see what happened to the baby and the earth and the water and the fish. Is it also a metaphor there about climate change?
Jeff: Oh, for sure. 100% is, uh, blood Quantum is, uh, environmental catastrophe film. I've always qualified it as that, except your tornadoes and your tsunamis and your hurricanes are zombies. That's the only difference. It's like, think of it as if the earth had an immune system and the immune system were zombies and their only purpose is to go out and make more zombies because all those zombies, they're all gonna turn to fertilizer one day.
C: That’s true
J: So it just makes sense that if you believe in native cosmology, Mi'gmaq cosmology is idea that the earth is a living, breathing thing. And I think that would impose on it consciousness and if you impose on consciousness, then there's some degree of right and wrong, or there's some degree of, you know, fuck with me and I'm gonna, you're gonna find out.
Chuck: Yeah. fuck around and find out! There you go.
Jeff: then I think that's, we're in that phase of, of, uh, climate change now
Chuck: yeah. No I totally get it. And I think, yeah,
Jeff: See that more over the course of the next couple of years where, Climate change is gonna get crazier and crazier.
Chuck: that's, that was, Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, that was the, the whole speech by Moon talking about how, you know, he said that this, this is like the payback, like exactly what you just described. And I've always believed that when you have a world full of imbalance, something's gotta give at some point. And, you know, it just, you have no control over what that's gonna be. And, and for you in this movie, it was zombies. Like, this is what it is. We're coming back to eat everything that, you know, we destroyed. So it's, it's, you know, there's a, that, that's one of the things that I really loved about the movie.
Jeff: There's that kind of print ultimate metaphor too, of the capitalists eating its own young. That's why it makes the zombie cannibals so much more applicable to like, you see it and trained with some, you see that, that, that kind of juxtaposition there. Business like family. So you're starting to see,I don't know, I, I can't imagine there being another really great Zombie movie coming up anytime soon, but I can't imagine them not getting any, any less popular either.
Karama: No, I was gonna say, now we, we talked about one of the animated scenes at the beginning. Now the second animated scene was with Lysol, and it sort of like, it almost looked like a personification of his rage. Was that your intent?
Jeff: Yeah, I was showing him like literally switch over. I was like, he's gone. Lysol’s gone. Not even,
Chuck: Oh, wow. Like he went
Karama: But was it, was he trying to, was his goal at the end to destroy his own people, or was his goal literally like, I'm just wiping out anybody and anything that gets in my way?
Jeff: I think he was under the impression that his own people would fine, and for the most part he was right. Like he didn't really kill any native people, with the exception of his dad, which I kind was the point of him setting him free there
Karama: Mm.
Jeff: or setting the zombie free in a complex. But I think for him, he was kind of playing devil's advocate in the sense that, you know, we have a ticking time bomb here. All I'm doing is making sure it goes off in a way that I could control it or that he thought he could control it. So I think that's, you know, why he did what he did. There's another thing too that ends up getting lost cuz we didn't end up shooting it. It was Lillith that was bringing the refugees across. So Lysol had this pending pent up resentment towards her
Chuck: Oh that, Yeah.
Karama: It was Charlie. Okay, so it was Lillith first. Also, also the fact that, oh, girl's name was Lillith. I'm like this, y'all can't see what this is happening. Her name is Lillith, the devil's wife. Come on. I didn't know that Lilli, So Lillith was friends with Charlie and was the one that was bringing people across.
Chuck: See that makes sense. That makes sense. Cause I remember the, Lysol did mention something like that. That decision that Lysol made is like, see, you already know she bad news. Why you messing with her bro? Like, that was my whole thing.
Karama: He just couldn’t say away. He's like a moth to a flame that I think that's what makes lifestyle chaotic, evil.
So, let's back up a little bit. Tell us, you grew up on a reserve. Where in Canada was it? And, what year was that raid and what happened?
Jeff: it, uh, towards the St. Lawrence opening up to the Atlantic, you go in and they'll find a couple of peninsulas and one of them is Hamilton, New Brunswick, Gasby and my reserve Listuguj, which is on the coast of New Brunswick and Quebec and northeast part of Canada. The summer of 1980 and 81 the police wardens the police war in the games, and fishery wardens there were warning Mi'gmaq to stop fishing because they said they were fishing beyond thc eir conservationist number, which is nonsense. I mean, there was like Atlantic trawlers taking out hundreds and tons of fish outta the water while like the Mi’gmaq were taking like six, seven tons. So they raided the reserve for three days straight, and they destroyed boats. They cut nets, they assaulted people, and they arrested people. So that's kind of what was inspired by,
Karama: you are part of the Mi'gmaq nation?
Jeff: Yeah, I was there when that happened. I was like, I was living right in the center of it all. Yeah, I remember that pretty distinctly. Yeah. I was about five years old when now it's kind of craziest. Yeah. But those were my first memories. That's like my brain went online,
Chuck: yeah,
Karama: Wow.
Jeff: how trauma and traumatic was. It was like my brain went online. I remember the in the sky and I remember like so many police officers, it was like they were trying to take down like a small militia or something opposed to a handful of fishermen.
Chuck: Shoot. I can imagine.
Karama: So the movie as a whole, like the Reserve that's represented in the movie is representative of kind of how you grew up. Are there characters in the movie that are based on people that you knew real life?
Jeff: Oh yeah, my uncles, my aunts, my, me, me, I'm very That's
Karama: You're very Lysol-y
Jeff: I think, at his age for sure. Like, I
Karama: gonna say, but you didn't get your stuff bit off by a
Chuck: I was about to say, man. Yeah,
Karama: still intact. I'm hoping
Jeff: didn't find happiness until I had kids. That was like, until I was in my thirties, so when I was in my twenties. I was kind of like Lysol, like, you know, family and shit. Dad's shit. Cause I grew in foster care too and I didn't think my family was much of anything. So a lot of who I was back then came through later on. But in terms of like straight copies of people, no, not really.
Karama: Well, let's, let's talk about, let's talk about Lysol a little bit because I, I found Lysol fascinating. and the fact that you say it's, it was inspired by your youth also, also makes it more meaningful. What happened to Lysol’s mother?
Jeff: Well, it's kind of a mystery, but you get the impression she was killed violently and remained unsolved and you get the impression that his father didn't want anything to do with him.
Chuck: Mm-hmm. That was the thing. Cuz Lysol was to me, was like, this character was like, you understood him. Like, you were like, Yo, man, I totally feel you. I wouldn't make your decisions though, but I totally understand.
Karama: He was kind of like the Killmonger of your movie.
Jeff: You know what? Killmonger was righteous though Lysol was never righteous. He was never like, he never pretended like he was doing anything other than what he wanted to do.
Karama: That's true. He did say that at one point and he said that to his brother, to his stepbrother. He said that.
LSYOL AND JACOB BLOOD QUANTUM CLIP
Karama: We haven't touched on the actual title. define blood quantum as it applies to indigenous people in Canada right now
Jeff: Well, it's a measurement of their blood portion to see whether or not they qualify for whatever tribal membership they're applying for. Like Cherokee, for example, would require that you have at least one grandparent, so that's 25% Cherokee in order to be a part of that tribe.
Chuck: mm
Karama: Mm. the government uses this to say who and who isn't considered indigenous and it should get indigenous benefits, correct?
Jeff: Yes. And this is kind of what makes it a double edged sword because you have a lot of people. That the decry blood quantum, because it measures ethnicity like you would a dog, like a, like you would breed, but by the same token, it gives you an actual ear marker by which you can say your having a grandmother that said she was a Cherokee princess doesn't make you a Cherokee princess, you have to prove this somewhere.
Karama: Well, let me, let me ask you this. What are the benefits of, for the people who don't know, what are the benefits of doing something like that? Does that mean that they get land and rights and they have their own nation?
Jeff: Jesus, you know what, this is like, one of the kind of comical debates in Indian country is because like, who the fuck goes out of the way to be native? It's kinda. It's existence like you have no money. You live, you live in poverty. I mean you're, it's like objectively terrible. And yet people pursue it because there's a definitive audience and money there for people who try to represent, native people.
Karama: I am very curious as to why you chose horror to tell the story. Why make it a zombie film? Cause you could have, you could told the story a ton of different ways. why make it zombies?
Jeff: It was just fun. It was just like I wanted to do a zombie movie who was, who doesn't wanna do a zombie movie, and it like an original take on the idea. And it gave me an opportunity to do like some fun kills, like the chainsaw hanging upside down, walking into the snowblower gave us you.
Karama: Yeah. That thing, that wood chipper, snowblower thing that was like, that was what was so funny. They didn't have a problem getting rid of the zombies. They were very efficient. Their problem were the people that are, that possibly infected just walking in the camp.
Of all your horror movies that you were watching growing up and coming up with, what were, what were some of your favorite? What horror movies inspired your work?
Jeff: Not really horror movies. Horror movies inspire my work, not through thematics, but to atmosphere.
Chuck: Hmm
Jeff: That's what I like. I like atmospheric movies and typically those ranged, it's the horror, but not really, because there was movies when I was growing up that I watched a lot of like Blade Runner in the Wall that were visually striking to me
Chuck: Yeah.
Jeff: that kind of had horrific kind of surreal images that I attributed more to mood than to any particular kind of dread. I was never about making scary images. It was always about making moody images. And when I did Blood Quantum, it was more, it was more like I was gonna make a cautious effort to just like quit dancing around and just do a straight up horror movie, because I had never done one before. So it was just like, let's stop flirting with the idea of doing one and do one. But like, am I a horrible movie director? If I had a choice, I'd be doing science fiction.
Chuck: Aha.
Jeff: Yeah.
Karama: so like cosmic horror?
Jeff: Yeah. Stuff like that.
Karama: That's Chuck's wheelhouse.
Chuck: I love Cosmic quarter. That's, that's my joint,
Jeff: that's exactly what I would be doing. I would doing kind of cosmic horror cyber punk. That's, That's the last thing I was writing was a cosmic horror cyber punk show. But I think cosmic horror has been that touchstone to this kind of ineffable dread, like this dread, you can't put your finger on, can't quite put your, your, your mind on because it's so existential. It's coming from everywhere all at once.
Chuck: And, and I think that's, that's one of the things about me and cosmic horror that that really gets me, is that when you deal with a slasher, you deal with zombies, you deal with wearables, vampires, you, you already know
Karama: And he's not, he's not scared of any
Chuck: When you talk about the fear of the unknown, you have no idea what's coming out after you. And you are already trying to discover who you are as a person just in on this ball, on this thing called Earth. Just trying to deal with that. And then it's another existential threat comes outta nowhere that tells you that I'm bigger than you. It is crazy. And I think that to me is like, is like one of the things that I, I, personally, for me, that I fear the most, I, I totally feel you on that.
Karama: So Jeff, before we let you go, every guest on Pop Paranormal gets asked a very important question, and that is, what's your favorite horror movie, monster or weapon? And it doesn't have to be from this movie.
Jeff: Horror movie or monster? You nnow who I find doesn't get enough love. Pumpkin head.
Chuck: Yes.
Karama: There you go.
Chuck: Hell yeah.
Jeff: that was, uh, who directed that? It was, uh, Ben Winston. That's who it
Chuck: Stan Winston. Stan Winston, Yeah.
Karama: Yeah. it was Stan Winston and it was, uh, yeah, like Mark Patrick Carducci, Stan Winston, Gary, all those guys. Yes. That was a Stan Winston film. You're right, it's not getting that flow. so what's your weapon of choice?
Jeff: choice? Know what? A mashawn sword comes to mind.
Chuck: Well, there you go.
Karama: So thank you so much for hanging out with us, Jeff. We really, really appreciate it. And we cannot wait to see this sequel to Blood Quantum. So yo, whoever's out there listing, if you have some money, throw it at us so we can get this sequel
Chuck: word up. Seriously?
Jeff: All right, man,
[00:00:00] Karama: Thanks so much for listening. We are so honored to have had Jeff Barner being on the show. You know, there's a reason we wanted to talk about Blood Quantum. We've seen a million zombie movies, but this one, blood Quantum really stands out for some of the deeper themes.
[00:00:18] Chuck: For real. I remember towards the end of our conversation off Mike, we were talking about his potential future projects and in retrospect, knowing what he was going through, I mean, it was, it's heartbreaking that he won't be able to tell those stories.
[00:00:33] Karama: But for me, I feel. Barnaby is like Sagu, like he's still on that island with his fist raised and he never left, his indigenous land. So there's still stories there to tell. So I think that's, that's what like really means a lot to me when I, when I, think about the lore in this film and the fact that even in the film they were saying death is not the end, I feel like there's so many people that can continue his legacy that I'm just so honored that he wanted to share some of that story.
[00:01:11] Chuck: yeah, I mean, this hit hard. Listening to the interview over again was that moment of knowing, you know, like sharing our favorite thing about cosmic horror.
And what that means. And hearing that project that, you know, he said he wanted to do a TV show of like a cos of sci-fi cosmic horror and, you know, but just understanding the philosophy of existentialism and, and everything else, and, and all that, and, Honestly, I, I, hope that now he can just travel the universe and live out those stories.
You know, you're done here and you, you get a chance, your consciousness just goes out into the universe, and that's, that's, you're consistently traveling. you're never stopping. So I, I wish him a, a, a very amazing. Imagination filled journey, you know, into that reality.
[00:02:05] Karama: We wanna thank the Barnaby family again for giving us permission to air this episode, and we wish the Barnaby family and friends and everyone who worked on this film, well during this time.
[00:02:16] Chuck: And we also wanted to put out there that one of Jeff's favorite charities was the Montreal Native Women's Shelter. If you feel moved to make a donation, please go to N wsm.info.
[00:02:28] Karama: Pop Paranormal is produced by neon hum for Travel Channel. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcast, and we love it. If you could take a second to leave us a five star review,