This week, it’s cults, LSD, biker gangs and bloody revenge. Karama and Chuck break down one of their favorites, the 2018 film Mandy, starring Nicolas Cage.
This week, it’s cults, LSD, biker gangs and bloody revenge. Karama and Chuck break down one of their favorites, the 2018 film Mandy, starring Nicolas Cage. They discuss why they think Cage gives the best performance of his career and they try to interpret the many symbols of this complicated and terrifying movie. Plus, Mandy co-writer, Aaron Stewart-Ahn, offers insight into what the film is all about.
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Find episode transcripts here: https://pop-paranormal.simplecast.com/episodes/mandy-a-tripped-out-revenge-story
Karama: Hey folks. I'm Karama Horne, aka The Blerd Girl. I'm a writer and critic parked at the intersection of geekdom and diversity.
Chuck: And I'm Chuck Collins, comic book artist, former bouncer and horror connoisseur.
Karama: and this is Pop Paranormal from Travel Channel. Welcome back to the show where we take you from the scary screen to behind the scenes of the most talked about horror movies and shows.
Karama: So Chuck if you know me, you know I love Nic Cage.
Chuck: Well I do know you, and I do know you love Nic Cage. But you know what I don’t know is do you have a favorite Nic Cage performance?
Karama: There are so many because he's incredible, but I think I'd have to go with like Nick Cage in his underwear in the bathroom, covered with blood, downing a bottle of vodka, pouring vodka on like open wounds and like making these crazy guttural animal noises because like his girlfriend's just been killed.
Chuck: Oh you are talking about the beautiful, haunting, terrifying movie,called Mandy. And yes you are absolutely right. Nic Cage’s character is completely unhinged because of the death of his girlfriend. And his performance - it’s raw, it’s wild. There's not enough adjectives to actually describe how this movie is.
Karama: Can you even imagine anyone else in this role? Like, I don't think anybody else could do it justice. What do you think?
Chuck: Who do you think could have done this role?
Karama: No one. I, I can't, I honestly can't think of anybody else. It was truly a crazy performance for a crazy and awesome movie. On today's show, we're talking about the 2018 bloody revenge story, Mandy. And folks this movie is, nothing, like anything you've ever seen before actually, or anything like we've talked about on this show before. You know, it's really, really a different kind of horror movie.
Chuck: Yeah, for so many reasons. It's the kind of movie that you watch and you're like really enthralled by it. Like by the time you finish watching it, it's like, what the hell did I just watch? It's so brutal and violent, but at the same time, it's artful and beautifully shot. And it was so rich with symbolism.
Karama: my God, yes. So much symbolism. We have some theories on actually what it all means, but we have no idea if we're right. So it's great news that we're able to talk with one of the co-writers of Mandy, Aaron Stewart-Ahn, to help us figure it out.
Chuck: Yeah. And it was super cool because after Aaron wrote Mandy, his career like exploded. That movie put him on the map
Karama: but like, we knew him before he got like, famous, famous, So
Chuck: that we sure did.
Karama: So Aaron also recently wrote an episode for Guillermo del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosity, which just dropped on Netflix, and he actually teamed back up with some of the people that created Mandy, including the director, Panos Cosmatos.
Karama: So Panos Cosmatos created and directed Mandy and Aaron Stewart-Ahn, and Casper Kelly co-wrote the script
Chuck: Mandy was also produced by Elijah Wood for his company Spectre Vision. Uh, you know cuz Frodo will be out here making horror movies.
Karama: the movie Stars Nicolas Cage, as we mentioned as Red and the love of his life. Mandy played by the amazing Andrea Riseborough. Iit also features Linus Roache as Jeremiah Sand, the super creepy cult leader. And yes, folks, that's the same Linus Roache who played Batman's dad, Thomas Wayne in the Dark Night. And so, excuse me, if I call Jeremiah Sand Batman's dad throughout this episode, because I can't unsee that.
Chuck: Neither can I. Look critics love this film when it first came out. To quote the New York Times, “the movie imagery is consistently unearthly. Its pacing has a magisterial weight.” And to be quite frank, like I agree. I mean, this movie hit me really hard. It's kind of like when you go to the museum and you see like a very brilliant art piece. It's dense, but it's moody, it's vibrant. You can't stop looking at it. And it's like every time you look at it though, you get, you see something new, something that you didn't see before.
Karama: I, I, I completely agree with you. I'm just trying to remember the last time you went to see a museum.
Karama: I'm like, when's the last time you saw a painting?
Chuck: But without further ado, you know what time it is.
Karama: Yeah. Now this one is gonna be tough cuz this movie, I'm going to describe this movie in one minute and as usual, I am going to spoil the entire thing like rotten eggs. But don't get mad at me if you're a bit confused.
Chuck: The Pop Paranormies are gonna love it, they love this stuff.
Karama: so, all right. Right. I'll give it my best
Chuck: so get ready to spoil right about now.
TIMER
Karama: So Mandy takes place in 1983 and follows Red and Mandy, a middle-aged couple living off the grid in a little cabin in the woods in California. Now Red is a logger and Mandy is an artist. And one day Mandy out for her daily walk is spotted by the vial Jeremiah Sand, the leader of a sadistic cult called Children of the New Dawn. Jeremiah becomes obsessed with her and then they summon a trio of drugged out biker ghouls called the Black Skulls to break into their home and kidnap Mandy and Red. They drug Mandy with LSD and bug poison and Sand attempts to woo her, but when she rejects him, he burns her alive in front of red. Red completely snaps. He arms himself with, a huge crossbow, dubbed the reaper, and a massive chainsaw the size of a Buick, and basically takes a huge hit of the altered LSD, goes on a rampage, kills everyone, starting with the gang and ending with the cult. And in the end drives off into the sunrise with the ghost of Mandy past.
Chuck: Yes. You wasn't over. No, you're good. You're good.
Karama: the Love story, the sadistic cult, the LSD and unhinged ridiculous gauge. It really makes you wanna know what this movie is actually about. But we have some clues. The director, Panos Cosmatos, wrote Mandy right after he wrote his first horror film Beyond the Black Rainbow in 2010. Now, that was about a young woman with psychic abilities who tries to escape like this secluded institute slash futuristic commune, while a controlling narcissistic doctor attempts to use her powers to achieve transcendence.
Chuck: Panos has actually said before that beyond the Black Rainbow and Mandy, or about him mourning the death of his own parents and processing a traumatic event
Karama: So Panos has said that after his mother died, he would black out drink to cope, not unlike what Red the Nicolas Cage character does to cope with his tragedy. And then when his father died, Panos turned to writing. And his father, by the way, is award-winning director George P Cosmatos. So, it's clear that his love of movies came from his Dad.
Chuck: We also need to point out that this movie's trippy as hell, like everyone is taking LSD. I mean, and that raises some questions about what is real and what is not.
But um, even in the movie, there's a bunch of scenes where the viewer sees overlaying images, like you're not really sure what you're seeing, whether it's reality or a dream.. There was that whole scene,
Karama: Maybe like There's so many times I question whether or not Mandy was actually real because
Karama: ethereal nature of just the layering of light and the layering of images and projection of images, sometimes on actor's faces, sometimes on like walls and things like that. It was kind of hard to tell sometimes what was real and what was just one big trip.
Chuck: The entire movie is just mood. The colors put you in a certain mood. The scenes put you in a certain mood. Like the way that the sound was done. It was, it was absolutely trippy. And I loved every
Karama: Well. It's interesting that you said sound, because music is really important to this film, and Kama said that he wanted the film to sound like a disintegrating rock opera.
Chuck: And you can really hear that disintegrating feeling. Like he also said that he was really inspired by Queen's Slash Gordon soundtrack, the 1980 space opera film that is probably one of the greatest movies of all time. The greatest soundtrack
Karama: was gonna say the soundtrack is incredible. I don't know about the movie, but the soundtrack is actually incredible. It's interesting about the music symbolism in the movie, Mandy's always wearing a Black Sabbath or Motley Crew t-shirt. There's a lot of really good t-shirts in this movie.
Chuck: No, definitely. And in the opening credits, the music by King Crimson, which is one of my favorite bands, I mean, their album is called Red, which happens to be the same name as Nicolas Cage’s character.
Karama: Yes. I forgot about
Chuck: And the thing about this song that's playing is called Starless. And if you listen to the lyrics, it basically describes Red's world without Mandy. Red's world without stars.
Karama: Oh, okay. Cuz she's always looking at her like, she's his light, she's his star. That's, that's interesting.
Chuck: Absolutely. And it's an ongoing theme throughout the movie.
Karama: Also Mandy's really into planets. She draws them, her and Red talk about planets and it seems like they're surrounded by planets. Like when you're looking at the horizon and stuff like that, you've got all these images of the, of the sky. it's just, this really ethereal feel that it's just another layer to the movie. They never really discuss it. It's not really a big thing like, oh, we're gonna go to another planet. But when the biker gang shows up and they seem to have these other worldly powers, the symbols that you've seen just bring you right there. Like, yeah, they're not from here. They're not from these neck of the woods,
Chuck: Right. What's funny about the whole thing with the planets thing, and I'll, I'll just do this to rock your mind a little bit. Red, one of his favorite planets, is Galactus and Mandy's like, that's not a planet. He says, No, no, but he eats other planets. I find it so funny that right after that, the whole tragedy happens and he literally goes around destroying everything like he is Galactus.
Karama: know what? I didn't pick up on that. And that is a comic book thing. That is a, if you're a comic book fan, you are going to recognize that entire sequence because Galactus the, the Marvel character, he is the eater of planets. He literally would go around the solar system and devour worlds. He is the devourer of worlds. That's literally what Red does in this film. He just devours everything around him.
Karama: And another thing that's interesting visually, Mandy appears to have heterochromia, which means her eyes are two different colors. She also seems to have anisocoria , where her pupils are a different size. And David Bowie had both of these as well. I wonder if this is a reference to him.
Karama: OK I think we could go on like this forever, picking up on little things and symbopls and trying to figure out what they mean. But I do think there's a few things we can say with certainty about this movie and that is Red and Mandy have this undeniable love for each other, and after the cult kills Mandy, Red is totally lost without her and seeks retribution in the most violent way.
Chuck: Yeah, I mean, look, it's basically like two movies and one for me, the first part being the Love story and the second part being a gruesome revenge story. I, mean it, or you know, actually three movies. It could be, the first part is a love story. The second part is a gruesome revenge story that turns into a cosmic horror.
Karama: that, that's true. I mean, when, we said no one else could play the role of Red, but Nic Cage, we weren't kidding. Like he's both vicious and tragic and you completely understand why he's unhinged. But then you also question how. Like you understand that he is unhinged because of the death of his girlfriend, but where he goes when he opens that door is like, what have you been through man?
Karama: Like, who hurt you? The things that he decides to do to these people, like, Yeah. You really wanna learn more.
Chuck: Yeah. And, and the funny thing is about Red is that, you know, you gotta understand that this is a guy who's faced a lot of trauma, and it's kind of alluded to the fact that he may have just been like, a vet. And so he meets somebody like Mandy, that becomes this whole world, and then it's taken away from him.
Now, on the other side of, of the, of that coin, you have Mandy who is both vulnerable and fearless on her own. You know, we learn a bit about her backstory, where she had a troubled relationship with her father, and it seems to have made her like very weary of people. She tells that disturbing story, you know, the one when they were in bed together about her dad getting all these starlings together, you know, and then he starts to kill them and tells the kids around there to start, you know, killing them too. And when it came to her turn, she just up and left.
Karama: Yeah. She just didn't wanna take any part of it.
Chuck: Absolutely. But then that speaks to so much volumes to her character. And then she's like complete vulnerable place where she's, when she's kidnapped by, the Children of the New Dawn, she literally laughs at Jeremiah's face. Like you remember that whole part.
Karama: I, I really like her character because basically, even though she wasn't a vulnerable position, she has been through so much trauma that she makes the decision at that moment, like even, even though she's high, her reaction is like, no, I have survived and I am not afraid of you. I see you for what you are and I'm going to speak out. I'm not walking away. I can't, I'm gonna say to you exactly what this is. And so that strength, even though I don't know if she knew she was going to die, but I knew she knew there would be consequences, but she just, she was absolutely had no fear.
Chuck: well, yeah, it was like her final stand. Like there's nothing that you know she could have done. And it kind of gives you that whole thing of like, look, I know what you're doing. I know what you're about. I'm not gonna give you satisfaction before you take me out. I, that, that's
Karama: But again, I don't, I don't actually don't think she knew that they were gonna kill her. I think she thought she was gonna be like assaulted. And that's what's interesting cuz that's a viewer you're like anticipating this violent scene against a woman. But then they flip it and Mandy takes back control by laughing and humiliating this guy who thinks he's all powerful. Now in the end it does not work out for her. And we get into all this with the writer, the co-writer Aaron Stewart-Ahn by the way.
Chuck: Look, my final thought, right? we've got this dude Caruthers, played by Bill Duke, who read visits after Mandy is murdered to get his weapon, not just any weapon, but the reaper.
Karama: That thing is ridiculous.
Chuck: And Caruthers was like he looks at him and says, I got some extra stuff for you over there. And then he, gives him the special arrows too. Now Caruthers though, he clears some things up for us. The, the Black Skull biker gang, the drugs that they used, and what Red is up against, and the fact that Red might not even survive this whole battle.
MANDY CLIP 2
Karama: Yeah, it was a really interesting scene. I'm, I'm not, I kind of felt, I don't know if it was a little out of place, but I definitely felt that there was, there was something a little different. Like I think definitely it was the, brightest scene in the whole movie, like it was really, really light. And then also there was a lot of backstory in there that I felt like could have been spread out a little bit more. But then again, look, look, he had Bill Duke, and if you get Bill Duke, you use him, you make him read everything. So
Chuck: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, um, oh no. Bill Duke is the man. Um, I actually don't feel that that scene was at a place. I think it, it actually explains a lot. Um, I think it kind of gives you this backstory of Red and where he's from and it's kind of alluded to the fact that he probably was a vet or he probably wasn't a very good person before he met Mandy. Either way, it would've been a hell of a boring movie as if after Mandy died, he just decided, Well, let me just go to the police and get this taken care of. So to have that part of this story tells you that him going to get revenge, he's actually skilled enough to just do that. And whether he's gonna survive or not is no consequence to him. I'm taking down the people who killed my girl. Like, that's all it.
Karama: Exactly. Now listen, up next, we're gonna get a lot of these questions answered. Well, some of them anyway in our discussion with Mandy, co-writer Aarons Stewart-Ahn. And we'll even talk about his work with Guillermo del Toro on Cabinet of Curiosities.
MIDROLL
Karama: All right Pop Paranormies. I know we and probably you by this point have so many questions about this film, which is why we were so thrilled that we chatted with Mandy, co-writer Aaron Stewart-Ahn.
Chuck: Aaron is the consummate artist. He's written across mediums including comics, movies, music videos and a hell of a lot more. He was a staff writer on Netflix The Witcher. He was also part of the production team for the video game Red Dead Redemption, which is one of my faves.
Karama: and his latest, actually, he wrote an episode for Guillermo del Toro's, Cabinet of Curiosities, which is now on Netflix. Now, for those of you who don't know, Cabinet of Curiosities is an eight episode anthology of horror shorts produced by Guillermo del Toro each featuring a different director and writing team. And Aaron Stewart-Ahn Got to team up with Mandy director Panos Cosmatos again to create this episode. It's called The Viewing, and it features legendary actor Peter Weller, Robocop for those of you who are old enough to remember who that is. And Weller plays a wealthy recluse collector who invites a small group of professionals, including a chemist, a musician, a telekinetic, and a writer to reveal to them an alien artifact. But, uh, things don't go as planned. And a lot of people die. A lot of people die.
INTERVIEW
Karama: so I'm so excited to bring to Pop Paranormal Aaron Stewart-Ahn the legendary director writer. We're really, really excited to have you here. how are you?
Aaron: I'm good.
Karama: This wasn't your first movie, obviously, but would you say this was your biggest project?
Aaron: I mean, if, if you really want to get into the origin of this movie, I had been a sort of journey person, filmmaker who was very frustrated because the stories I was trying to tell at the time I was, there wasn't a lot of traction and I'll just be really honest about it. There were stories, genre stories with uh, Asian Americans as I'm, I'm, I'm Korean-American. And I just could not get financing or casting. I would hit walls. Uh, and I was really frustrated by this. I got so burned out. I ended up working in a bicycle shop cuz I was just fed up and I had this real existential crisis. And, uh, I went to see at the Tribeca Film Festival, a midnight premiere of a movie called Beyond the Black Rainbow,
Karama: that, is Panos, not in his first movie, but, uh, a, a pretty big
Aaron: his, his first feature. and, I'm gonna admit this, people walked out, you know, it's a, it's a,
Karama: that, is Panos, not in his first movie, but, uh, a, a pretty big
Aaron: and, And, and I, I felt for, for this filmmaker, and I really liked him in the q and a afterwards. Um, and I just walked right up to him and I was just like, I, I, loved your movie. And, and that began a friendship. But I was working in the bike shop and he came to me and he's like, i, I, I'm writing this movie, my next movie and he'd read a script of mine, a horror film I had been trying to make that, that wasn't going anywhere, but he liked it a lot. And he asked me if I could help him write this, this movie he was working on. And, um, he passed me the materials that he had, like, you know, he had a chunk of it written. And so we started, so I spent I think three years working in the bike shop, writing it with him.
Karama: but then what's it like taking somebody's story, their concept and then formatting that into a screenplay?
Aaron: I mean, to be sincere, like, you know, Mandy, like was born out of some very real, real personal trauma, and
Chuck: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Panos has talked about it publicly in other interviews, so I feel okay talking about
Karama: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.
Aaron: and and, I, won't go into details, but just my own fascination. You know, I, I had some like illness issues that kept me hospitalized for a while. Like just the, the, the feeling of being close to mortality, anxiety attacks, all these things like, you know, fused emerged in this story that he wanted to tell. And, and he, he had a very concrete thing where he wanted to use the form of a revenge thriller. And, and that has these constraints and how do you be creative around it? You know? And, and I had concerns too. You know, I, I wasn't like, I would never personally write a movie, that's centered around the killing of a woman. If we were gonna do that, we were gonna try and find a way to subvert it and dig deep and, and connect it to people we've lost in our lives and try and, you know make a connection. And, and so that first half of Mandy, you know, the movie's named after Mandy
Chuck: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: that was a fight. Like, we had to really fight. Like, people were like, You can't make an action movie with Nicolas Cage with a feminine name. But that was in the script. That was in the script that her name would appear at the halfway mark of the movie and be the title card.
Chuck: You started the movie off with this feeling and, and I guess it's also the way that the mood was, the mood, the use of color like every shot was done so beautifully that you felt that mood and that love between Red and Mandy, and you were just like this, if this was just the movie, I'd be fine.
Aaron: Right.
Chuck: You know? And then when you get to the midpoint, you're like, Oh, I forgot what kind of movie I was watching.
Aaron: Well that's, good to hear because we wanted, to do a tricky thing, which was to make you really care about them and feel for them, before you irreparably feel the loss. As hard as it is. Guillermo del Toro said this thing once, like, that we'll discuss later, that I've worked for him a little bit. But years ago, I read this thing in a book, an interview with him that just, it hit me almost like a religious lightning bolt where he was like, we don't use genre stories like horror fantasy stuff, we don't use them to escape, we use them to interpret reality. And for us, like the mechanism of a revenge thriller, the, horror genre, those can be like weirdly comforting or cathartic or a way to. discuss sublimated suppressed things in society that other forms of drama, might have difficulty with or, you know, can be afraid to confront. So, you know, there's, there's something about being a little illegitimate with, with, with those forms that is very liberating, but also at the same time, like, there's a funny thing. A lot of people I know who have been through serious trauma in their lives, horror movies are comforting to them.
Karama: And I also think that a lot of the characters that are in horror movies are archetypes for things. Which brings me to my next question. Let's talk about some of these characters. Jeremiah Sand, the cult leader who everybody knows I keep calling him Batman's dad because Linus Roache what do we do when we fall, Bruce? What do we do? We get back up. but I, he, he was so good in this film, he was unrecognizable. That's why I keep having to remind myself that he was Batman's dad. But what did he represent cuz it, was it just toxic masculinity or was it more than that?
Aaron: Yeah, I mean, for sure. It's funny, like, look, Trump was not, he had not announced his candidacy when we started writing this, but it's just,
Karama: Wow. I thought it was inspired by him. OK.
Aaron: no. It, it, but, but it, but, but here's the thing I, that I think is really scary is that there was something in the era already that he was going to harness, you know? And, and, and that's what we were um, I mean, there's, it, it's not just toxic masculinity's narcissism. It's, it's wanting to control people. I think this is a theme. Panos and I, when we work together, we return to a lot and, and he even doesn't, Beyond the Black Rainbow. Um, But just out of insecurity and fear, violence manifests through desire to control other people and how terrifying that is. Yeah. And and I don't know, we just had a feeling that there was something in the air about that. For whatever reason, Panos and I grew up, we grew up, in the same region of the world separated by the Canadian border, the Pacific Northwest. and there's something very, you know, there's a lot of mist and primevil woods. That's why the movie's set in the Shadow Mountains.
Chuck: a lot. Right,
Aaron: Yeah, right. it, like, we grew up in, in the same kind of psychic landscape. David Lynch grew up there. It's like it, there, there's something about that place, like the mist, I always say like the wind and the mist gets inside your bones and sort of reconfigures how you feel about certain things. And just, dark forces being in the ether. And also in a really bad way, we both know a lot about cults, which is useless.
Karama: No, that's what I was gonna ask you. I'm like, since you're up in there, was there a lot of cults in this mist because
Aaron: uh, oh,
Karama: and that
Chuck: And, and by the way, also, I gotta say that the, the name of the cult that you guys gave it, and, and now hearing you say this, it's like, right, you know, before Trump came into office. Like you felt that there was something in the air. You call them the Children of the New Dawn, because it does represent a new dawn of what we have now going on in 2022. Like, it was there like you said.
Karama: Yeah, It's a very.
Chuck: just like,
Karama: it was on brand.
Chuck: it was on brand brand personally. I think so. Yeah.
Aaron: I won't say Panos came up with the he already had that name specifically, but there, there was some riffing there. on just like how the counter culture movement led to some very abusive individuals who, who sought control of people when, when it, was draped in this very peace and love thing and the fallout of that into the seventies and eighties coming off of like radicalism in the sixties. Like just the way these good intentions or desire to spiritually ascend, get contorted and, distorted by people's egos, usually men, like, you know, that, that that was something. And I, if anything, I don't think we were prescient, we're just revisiting something that's haunting us. You know?
Karama: Who was the inspiration for Red? Was it Panos, or was it just that collective consciousness of rage that gets suppressed just so we can live in society?
Aaron: Well, I'll backtrack a little bit here. And, and this isn't to frustrate you or to be obtuse, but you, know, Panos and I are great believers in the beauty of a mystery, especially in this day and age where information is so accelerated. But it's, it's, it's like really fundamental to our love of cinema, like movies specifically where it's like, we long for and, really respect the idea that watching a movie is itself a creative act. Not just making it, but when you watch or you read a book, your psyche is you know, taking in the, the conveyance like words on a page or images and, sounds in a movie and, you're reassembling them in your mind and then adding your own interpretation to them. It's been a few years, but there's, there's some stuff about this. We've been always been, uh, very careful about wanting to define because we want people to have, interpretations about it that, that, that are completed by their imagination. And we really respect that. Yeah. I mean, to use the crudest example, just, and, and not to tear down something else, but but when we were kids, Boba Fett, you know, was something that you just glimpsed on screen a few minutes and had mythical power. You were like who is this? What is their story like? And you wanted to complete that in your own mind and imagination. That's all you had apart from, you know, a weird holiday special that got, Yeah.
Karama: No, I, And I will, I will actually agree to the fact that a lot of people did that so that when the movie, when the series came out, people were raging and like, This is not who he is. I'm like you've never seen who he is.
Aaron: Yeah. But, but, But, there's a power in that. Yeah.
Karama: you, And there is I do agree with what you're saying. Like many times there is precedent with creators not explaining some of their, you know, characters and meanings cuz they want the people who are watching it to give their own interpretation. So I can absolutely respect that.
Aaron: don't, I don't even want to interfere with their personal connection to it. Like, Red is an archetype. There's power in that archetype and, if somebody sees themself reflected in his rage, his grief, then I feel like we've accomplished something, you know? It's funny, like, I will tell you a story, like just even about our own process, like Panos and I even leave it mysterious to us a little bit. There's, there's a line in Mandy and I love this, there's, there's a line of Mandy where, Red's chained to, you know, a radiator pipe. And one of the Black Skull biker gang has like a knife to him. And, uh, she says, Do you have a death wish? And he says, I don't want to talk about it. And, and, okay, so this is like, I'm revealing this to you now. This is new information.
Chuck: Oh,
Karama: Yay.
Chuck: Yes.
Aaron: That was something like we were talking one day about a scene and you know, there's some really disturbing stuff we've wrote in there. There's horror elements that, I can't remember who it was, but somebody had written something very disturbing and we got on this conversation and some one of us said, like, you know, how did, how did you come up with this? And the reply was, I don't want to talk about it. And, and there was this pause and we were like, You know what? We should write that into the movie. And so,
Karama: That's classic. And I remember that scene too
Chuck: because that scene stood out so much because Nicolas Cage's face her in that seat. It went from like, you know, I, I'm gonna cry about this moment that I don't want talk about. We're just not gonna mention it. That's like totally outside of the movie now at this
Karama: And he's being held hostage, but it's like a therapy session, which was so funny.
Aaron: But to me, the thing I'm proud of about that screenplay is that we got Nicolas Cage. We got to me, most importantly, Andrea Riseborough.
Karama: I was gonna say Andrea as Mandy was amazing.
Aaron: but it was really like, you know, we, we were making an exploitation action horror movie with Nicolas Cage. I was concerned that there would be pressure to cast, like, you know, a a 22 year old ingenue who's, you know, like half Nic's age, which, which, can happen to when you're making a movie like this.
Karama: I wanna talk about Mandy, the character, but I also wanted to just thank you because it is so rare in horror. I've only seen it a few times, and I think somebody like Jamie Lee Curtis, with, with her legendary status has been able to do it. But very few women over the age of 40 are, or 35 even are, uh, able to really, uh, express themselves in horror and Andrea did an incredible job. And the two of them really looked, like I said, not just that they were in love, but they were at a point in their lives that they were like, you are my person, like we connect. You are the other half of me. And you could get that even though you saw her trauma, you saw some things that she was going through and the fact that she expressed herself through art. But I also saw that and I don't know if this is on purpose, and again, you probably won't tell me, but in her, in Mandy's defiance against Jeremiah, I saw her triumph.
Aaron: I, I will talk clearly about this because I think it, it is so clear, uh, you know, that need for his ego to be satisfied. She just destroys it immediately. She, she has no time for it. She thinks it's, just absurd, Like fundamentally absurd. And she sees right, through the illusion, even through this veil of narcotics that he's dosed her with, even with the admiration of his followers. She just, sees that this is bullshit. And then I, I would say, you know, her, her name has not appeared in the movie yet. It's, it's like and she, and she starts to return as a, as as a specter, you know, as a vision to Red. So in some ways she haunts the rest of the movie, like absolutely. She's, she's still present, I mean, yes. As something spectral and, and ephemeral, but she's there, pushing Red and and sort of, enacting through him her wishes for, for vengeance herself too.
Chuck: Mm.
Aaron: think there's an aspect of that in the animated sequences and the dreams he's having.
Chuck: Oh, absolutely.
Karama: So let's get to the, the question we've both me been meaning to ask you. And that is working with Nicolas Cage. Um, Does one really direct Nicolas
Aaron: Cage.
Karama: or does Nicolas, just tell you what he wants to
Aaron: to do. No, no, no, no. Um, he's too, um, look, he's, he, he is incredible. He's just one of those rare, like you hear about old school Hollywood actors. Like they, they, they can actually ask the focus, pull on the camera, am I 12 feet from your lens? And they know, they know where the, you
Karama: They know what that means.
Aaron: They know where the focus is and where to put their face. Like without having somebody tell them to do this. Like, Nic knows where the boom microphone is. He knows what the sound person's doing. He knows he's, he's aware of every mechanism of filming. So he's extraordinary collaborative. He is full of energy very fast, which like, can be tricky for other people.
Karama: You gotta always be rolling when he's, when he's on set. Huh? Always be
Aaron: be rolling. Yeah. It's like, you know, some other actors, like it takes a while to get into the takes and so on and, and just, but Nic will just like, I mean the, the him on the toilet with the bottle of vodka.
Chuck: And it's like, I'm thinking, do we do two takes or just one? It might have been one. I, I, I can't remember now, but I do know like the take you see there's a fuck up in the camera move. Like the camera got stuck on something. But we kept it because it felt emotion. It actually feels like, you're scared of approaching him or getting intimate with him in that moment. Like the camera catches for a second.
Karama: I didn't. I've never processed
Chuck: my, my thing was I I, I was like looking at that. whole scene, the way that it was going, Like, the, the, the, the, the pacing of the movie. And I was like, I don't know what the writers did. Cause it is, before I knew you wrote it, I was Like, I don't know what the writers did, but they said, did. they write to this point And then, then in the notes, say, Okay, Nicolas Cage is going Nicolas Cage right here..
Karama: Yeah.
Chuck: keep it open. It's like, we ain't gonna write nothing for, him we just, just let him do his thing. Like,
Aaron: we weren't writing the movie for him when we wrote it. In fact, Panos has talked about this. He wanted him to play Sand. He was like, this is a lawn channey monster part
Karama: interesting.
Aaron: And, and Nic was like, no, I want to play, I want play um, Red and Panos walked away from that dinner and he texted me and he's like, Yeah, he doesn't want to play sand. And then he texted me like an hour back, like, I'm a fucking idiot. Like, of course he should play Red. Like, you know, what am I thinking? What's wrong with me? Like, and then we committed to it. So it's like, and, and I know that him and Panos spent some really deep time collaborating. I mean on every out of the look. What facial hair, What hair, what shirt? like he is totally open to direction. It's like, I, I think our producer, Josh Waller, said this in an interview and, and it's right. Like it's, it's whether or not the filmmakers use Cage right is the question, you know, are are are they to his level, actually
Chuck: right.
Karama: What is one of your favorite memories of making Mandy?
Aaron: One was Bill Duke, Bill, you know, he has a very incredible screen presence, but he's also incredibly storied director, a graduate of the AFI who made some groundbreaking cinema of his own in the, seventies. Like, I just got to have this beautiful, in between takes. I got to sit with Bill Duke in a field full of sunshine in Belgium outside that trailer where they do their scenes. And Bill was just, telling me stories about, his experiences in, in Hollywood.
Karama: He's incredible. I got a chance to talk to him on the set of Black Lightning once, and it was just like, can I just stay here? Can I just sit here and just stay here forever. It's like talking to an uncle about all of like Hollywood film. He's he's so awesome.
Aaron: I, I love his character in the movie. I love how he delivered it, how he got, you know, the dialogue into like, is like, how he conveyed it is just so wonderful to me. It's everything I could have hoped for. That was cool.
Karama: So
I can't let you go without talking about two more things. One is you have, an incredible episode in Guillermo del Toro's latest, or I should say first series on Netflix called The Cabinet of Curiosities. And your episode is called The Viewing.
Aaron: Just to be clear, you're listeners, this is Panos and I working together again with Guillermo's producer. I, I'm writing with Panos, Panos is directing. Um, and so, and we had to do it with all new crew in Toronto. Guillermo's amazing people that he's built up over the years and all Guillermo's resources and generosity and support. Um, but, but the core thing was, you know, Yeah. It's the same people who made Mandy
Chuck: I had a whole theory. That's, that's the reason why I was, I was very interested in, talking to you about it because I was like this is now the, the Panos, slash Aaron cinematic universe, like this, all of these stories are connected and somehow
Aaron: we do not think of it that way.
Karama: I have to ask what was it like working with Guillermo?
Aaron: Guillermo is such a, he's such a gregarious, generous, like, supportive person who. Is so since like, fucking sincere, like he would use the f word, you know, about his, his, his, his love for the art that um, he's just helpful to people even though he probably shouldn't spend time on, you know, but he is just always been so, so kind to me. I, I just, this is ridiculous, but I really love the movie Crimson Peak and thought it was misunderstood. I wrote an online essay on Medium that nobody should have read,
Karama: I read it.
Aaron: Guillermo liked it. And so we started communicating a little bit. So that, that's all like, yeah. Uh, like, you know, sometimes I'd ask him about, and also he's led me down past a certain pieces of literature, like just the weird, esoteric interest. I have recommended stuff in reading that I haven't, or things that I've discovered I've passed him, whatever. But it's, but it's not, I wouldn't even describe it as a friendship. It's just more like he's like a professor and, just a, a sorcerer who's sharing what he has with us all.
Karama: We've gotta ask you one more thing. We ask every guest of Pop Paranormal the same question. What is your favorite horror monster and or weapon?
Aaron: See, that's a tough one because I love, I'm huge into, you know, when I was a teenager, I had so many, like Stan Winston creatures like taped to my bedroom walls, and I really miss like, iconic horror creatures. Like, even like, really like, c-tier ones, like, remember Shocker was great and
Karama: Oh
Chuck: my
Aaron: but, but it, but it, but it used to
Chuck: actually enjoyed that movie. I thought it was like such a cool new villain to have. And they only did one film with them,
Aaron: Yeah, it's like every, every few weeks there was a new horror movie with like a iconic character slash creature, you know, so I, I'm into that. But I got a really, like, if I really was honest with myself, I mean the original like HR Giger, Ridley Scott and James Cameron, version of the Alien. As far as a monster, I, just as a, as a work of design, it accomplished so much and was just, you know, and it, it, it, it really, like, you just look at it silhouette and instantly your psyche is affected, you know, by, by what it represents. And I'll also add it, it's a weapon too, so I'm answering your question. Yeah. It's a weapon and, and a monster.
Karama: We can talk to you for like, ever. Please tell everybody where they can find you, Aaron
Karama: your medium writings And
Aaron: fI'm sorry to laugh because it's like, these days I don't look, I'm on Twitter, but hey, I don't,
Chuck: I
Karama: don't know
Chuck: you yelling at,
Aaron: so, I'm on Twitter as some bad ideas because I have a lot of bad ideas, but I don't know how much longer I'll be there. Um, you can just look, you know, Google my name and find wherever the heck I end up living online.
Karama: We're so Really really thankful that you took time out of your crazy schedule to see us. and, we're,Aaron, so proud of you, so proud of all the stuff that you're doing.
Aaron: Same goes for you so thank you.
INTERVIEW END
KARAMA: wow, that was such a great conversation. And you know what? I, I really respect the fact that Aaron and Panos do not want to explain the meaning behind everything, so that we can relate to their work in our own way. I love that. But I still learned a lot.
Chuck: I mean, look, we got insight into the Nic Cage bathroom scene, and that's what I was here for, everybody. Good night. I'm done. I'm out. Peace.
Karama: And I also don't believe that the camera messed up. We're gonna have to go back and look at it again to find that, that hiccup, cuz
Chuck: I actually did see that but I didn't think it was a mistake. I just thought that that was supposed to be so intense that the camera did that thing
Karama: Yeah, we're gonna have to tell 'em to stop telling people it's a mistake because you can't really tell. So Aaron, stop telling people it's, you messed up. You didn't, It's fine. Now it's time for our favorite segment. We call This Week in Bad Decisions, where we talk about some of the not so great choices made by characters and movies and shows. Now, there were a lot of options, for this week for Mandy, but Chuck, where? Where did you land?
Chuck: Jeremiah Sands.
Karama: The cul leader. Okay,
Chuck: Yes. Everything about him. You know, first of all, everything. First of all, I'm upset at his mama for having him. That's a bad decision on there by itself. Secondly, I am upset with the fact that he saw Mandy walking down the street. He saw this cool looking girl with a Black Sabbath t-shirt on and decided, I'm going to just choose violence and destroy her life because I want her,
Karama: But in his world, he just doesn't see it that way. He's insane.
Chuck: see it that way. He sat there in the bed and, you know, just scream and writhed like talking about I want her like some like Gallum looking dude,
Karama: You
Chuck: he was basically Gallum with a wig. He was Gallum with a very nice permed wig.
Karama: That's a, and then the way he was like begging like a child at the end for his life,
Chuck: Yeah, well see. But, and, and I see that's the thing. And for everybody out there who leads the narcissistic, you know, very self-entitled, douchebag nature, what happens to Jeremiah at the end of the movie is eventually going to be your fate. Like, how do you think that whole thing is gonna work out for you? Summoning demons to kidnap a girl for no reason. And then she laughed at your peepee, like, I'm just, You're whack
Karama: laughed at your peepee. My pick is Mother Marlene played by Olwen Fouéré. And please forgive me if I'm saying that wrong, because I believe it's Swiss, but for, I mean, the actress has been around for a long time. She's amazing. But the fact that she was just not only doing Jeremiah Sands bidding, but had placed herself on the top of this hierarchy of women that he use. And attacks other women for him, like that's always bothered me. That's always bothered me. Like the women that are in these stories that are subjecting other women to horrible things and their whole thing is, well, at least it's not me. But like, she was really, really twisted. And then when she tried to sort of like come at red at the end, like, listen, I'll, you know, I'll go with you. And he was, and then he didn't say anything and the next thing you saw was him carrying her head. I was like, Yeah, see, Yeah.
Chuck: See, that's
Karama: Justified, you took his woman and laughed about it. So no, sorry, you're getting everything. She was, it was just, all of her choices made no sense to me. I really didn't like her.
THEME MUSIC
So those were our picks for this week in bad decisions, but who do you think we should have picked? Let us know using the hashtag Pop Paranormal
Karama: So instead of leaving you with a riddle this week we just want to thank you for listening to Pop Paranormal. We have absolutely loved doing this and we have loved hearing from you all across social media.
Chuck: Totally agree. I want to thank you for tuning in to hear us talk and quarrel week after week with each other about all things horror. It’s great to know people geek out over this stuff as much as we do.
Karama: And if you haven't yet left a comment, please use hashtag Pop Paranormal across all social platforms. Tell us what you think about the show. Make comments on your favorite podcast platforms, and be sure to follow Travel Channel at Travel Channel on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter.
Chuck: See you on the other side.
Pop Paranormal is produced by Neon Hum Media for Discovery +. For Discovery +, our executive producer is Barry Blitch. At Neon Hum, our Executive Producer is Shara Morris. (SHARE-UH) Morris. Our lead producer is Rebecca Kaufman. Our associate producer is Chloe Chaobal (CHO-BULL). Our production manager is Samantha Allison. Music by Asha Iwanowicz (IVAN-OH-VEECH). Concept by Odelia (OH-DELL-YUH) Rubin and Shara (SHARE-UH) Morris. Our engineer is Josh Hahn. And special Thanks to Hager Eldaas
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